He is resolutely atheist, but not of the 'religion poisons everything' variety; he thinks institutional religion - while based on an entirely false premise - can evolve and be a force for good. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Yeah. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Gov. Steve Christie Co-founder at Provizio; Accident Prevention Technology Belfast Metropolitan Area Proviz.io, +2 more Queen's University Belfast Steve Christie Advisor - Halliburton Consulting. See Genesis 35:23, Deuteronomy 21:15, Joshua 6:26, 1 Chronicles 3:1, and Hebrews 11:28, where firstborn is also used this way. Christie kicked a successful onside kick, which he recovered himself (becoming the first placekicker ever to do so in an NFL playoff game), and also kicked the game-winning 32-yard field goal in overtime. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. That the one being assumed would not see death and so their corpse would not be found as the case for both Enoch and Elijah demonstrates. Well, not necessarily. Its like, because-. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Thats right. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. It is not mentioned in any book of the Bible, protocanonical or deuterocanonical, nor in any ancient nonbiblical witnesses such as Josephus or Philo. Even a son of Mary would be interesting, rather its the fact that Jesus was referred through a metronym rather than a patronym, that normally in the ancient near east, you would refer to someone as the son of their father, the son of Joseph.. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. David K. Clark - apologist with notable books; teaches at Bethel Seminary. Okay. For a long time, a noted Christian apologist has publicly staked out a position that challenges the literal claims in the Book of Genesis but another apologist warns that position is a dangerous denial of truth and scripture. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. In fact, in the early church, it would be idolatry. I think it will be. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. And so when we look to Mary, we always follow the words that she uttered to the servants at the Wedding Feast of Cana, Do whatever he tells you. And Jesus tells us to honor our father and mother, and we should honor his father and mother. I bet maybe you would kneel before it in prayer, you would weep to see that through this means our salvation was procured. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. Probably not like any other piece of wood. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. Therefore Mary would not need to be assumed to heaven to keep her from seeing death if she were conceived sinless. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? So the Immaculate Conception does not contradict scripture then. Rather, this is Mary simply being obedient to the law just as Jesus submitted himself to baptism for the sake of all righteousness. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Please try again later. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. You answer that and then Ill ask Steve the next question. Yeah, sounds good. Trent had mentioned about, Well, it could mean sister-in-law. Well, the apostle John actually quoted from the Old Testament, from the Septuagint, frequently. Some of these questions are for both of you but it might be better if I ask a question, just one of you respond since we have so many. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. He graduated from UNIVERSITY OF MIAMI / SCHOOL OF MEDICINE in 1995. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. Please join our community. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. If it was, the New Testament writers would not deviate from it occasionally and use their own Greek translation. What you ended up finding also from this, as well as other dogmas, when you go back to it, you find a lot of these dogmas originating in apocalyptic literature. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Its called Morning Coffee, where we all sit down together, have a coffee and have a very casual chat. One, the sole non-falsifiable and fallible authority of the Roman Catholic church, sola ecclesia, which teaches these Marian Dogmas versus a sole infallible authority of scripture sola scriptura, which contradicts them. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. FEIN: 47-5459301. Geoffrey Stephen "Steve" Christie (born November 13, 1967) is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member Steve Christie - Top podcast episodes However, he should have cited what Jimmy said immediately before that quote: It wasnt entirely clear to every group of Jews exactly what books belonged in the Old Testament., Akin goes on to write that Jesus and the apostles went a bit further than the Pharisees on the issue of the canon. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Just keep it shorter than his response. Well, first of all, I want to thank you, Matt, for having me on, for hosting this debate and for all that, and for everyone affiliated with Pints with Aquinas. But I think so far, this has shown that Steve has not been able to apply scripture in an unambiguous way to show the Marian Dogma was contradicted. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. When it comes to ancient Jewish authors, Christians shouldnt be con-cerned if they, like most Jews today, didnt believe the deuterocanonical books were Scripture. All it shows is that even though she was free from sin, she still had human nature, and human nature is corrupted and mortal. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? Well, the Septuagint was a Greek translation that was finished around 134 BC. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. What plunged mankind into the fall was Adams sin, which resulted in Adam and by extension all of mankind, including Mary, physically dying. In week 1 vs. the Tennessee Titans, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (41, 42, & 33 yards). This is not the rule. The word savior is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a savior of sins. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. This is not a commitment to lend. Im surprised that you would pick Aquinas since he did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. So its not saying that he died. And see, heres the thing. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. One other point that I would raise is that other arguments that Protestants use to try to show that Jesus had brothers simply dont work. So thats also a bad argument. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. I already have. Really enjoying this. Mary being the mother of God, ever virgin, immaculately conceived and bodily assumed into heaven. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. I will take away their sins. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? Were going to move to Trent now for his 15 minute opening. And again, just to give an example in the Septuagint, in the Book of Sirach, which is inspired for Trent, but its not inspired for me, it uses the Greek word [Greek 00:47:52], which is a masculine form of [Greek 00:47:55] when it says, Hail Mary, full of grace. And its used to describe a man who is full of grace. At what point does Marion devotion or veneration turn into idolatry? It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. Had Adam not sinned he would be alive today, as well as Mary had she not inherited Adam sin nature, a view shared by Catholic Answers and the Second Council of Orange. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. H. Id have to respond individually. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. And it is from the pure fiction of the proto evangelium of James, Odes of Solomon, the Ascension of Isaiah, the Transitus of Pseudo-Melito, and other false gospels and apocryphal literature, some attached with anathemas by early popes for entertaining these works. First, Christies argument for the Pharisees canon being identical to modern Protestant Old Testament comes from a selective quotation from my colleague Jimmy Akin. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. This also contradicts the biblical purpose of an assumption. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. Theres a lot of people in scripture including Joseph that doesnt say anything that she gave birth to anybody and others that he didnt give birth to older step siblings of Jesus, so thats an argument from silence. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. We see this in Psalm 69:25. I dont think people at the time would call them Catholic. Agreed. Not everything we believe is found explicitly in sacred Scripture. Okay. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. Okay. But that is simply not the case. So Im not going to comment on that. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. Jesus Christ did not inherit original sin, but he became sin which is why the father had to turn away from him. For example, Strongs 80, are you aware that it describes adelphos, it says a brother, a member of the same religious community, a fellow Christian. Number two is when Steve said, well, I dont think the church died off. Thats just how debates work. . So whenever you are ready, Ill click the timer. Steve Christie - Apologetics315 Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? As Christians, we should not believe things that contradict the Word of God. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. The purpose of this debate, as Trent had brought up, is about the Marian Dogmas. I addressed this a little bit during the debates of the specific Greek word [inaudible 01:21:19], which is translate full of grace or highly favored, even Jimmy Akin from Catholic answers that. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? So you cant use Matthew 1:25 to prove Mary and Joseph had sexual relations. All right. Hallo.com/mattfred. Well the thing is, in both cases in the Septuagint and in Lukes gospel, theyre both in the perfect passive of participle, so theyre being used the same way. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. So its irrelevant. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. Steve Christie (Author of Good Deed) Steve Christie Goodreads Author Born in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Website http://stevechristieauthor.blogspot.co.uk/ Twitter schristieauthor Genre Crime Influences Great Scottish fiction writers who can conjour up a good descriptive s .more Member Since August 2010 URL In Luke 1:28, the angel uses it as a descriptor of Mary within a personal address, similar to how John the Baptist used the lamb of God to speak about Jesus, and that talks about the significance there. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. The night before that, we did an examination of conscience together. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Its a good question. Thank you. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. From 1992 to 2000, Christie kicked for Buffalo. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? So in Mark chapter one, verse 19, it says, James is the son of Zebedee, and it uses the Greek definite article. It is often said, in order to detect a counterfeit bill, you dont study other counterfeit bills, but instead you first study the genuine thing, then youll be able to detect a counterfeit easily. Yeah. Just as eating from the tree of life wouldve resulted in Adam physically living forever likewise, Adam, eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, result put into him physically dying. None of that is required by Greek grammar or what the verses say. Id probably enjoy Polycarp. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. They also didnt believe in the dogma either. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Yeah. James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Yeah. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. His kicking shoe from that game is displayed in the Pro Football Hall of Fame in Canton. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. Steve Christie also has his own website. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. These would be children from his previous marriage, making them adoptive brothers and sisters, and as such, they would be fully Jesuss brother and sister, the full use of the word adelphos. Steve Hays (1959-2020) We just learned that Steve Hays has passed away in a hospice. And hes not. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. What he lived by, he died by. And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. Im running out of time. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. Gary Habermas: The Minimal Facts Approach To The Resurrection (June, 2013) Video Link . If Mary was conceived sinless and kept the law perfectly, then Christ could not be her savior. In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. Immediately after this debate, as Trent had mentioned about, well with. Probably want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians an. Was finished around 134 BC Morning Coffee, where we all sit together... 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