It just always seemed clear to me how Paul was instructing the Corinthian church to deal with sin that caused harm to the testimony of Christ. I posted that list to you multiple times. Its not helpful, I know. Nobody kicked her out. Not everyone is helped through standard mental health professionals. His alcoholism is one of the least of the familys concerns. Help train Christians to boldly share the good news of Jesus Christ in a way that clearly communicates to this secular age. :'(. I feel for his family and his victims but there wont be any hugs coming from my direction. Without accountability, anything else is worthless. (LogOut/ You responded to me that you think that Sproul 2: should be put out based on his ongoing chronic abuse behaviors, some behaviors that have not been mentioned here (including his abuse of alcohol which has put kids in harms way).. It does sound phony maybe its not. Yes, Christiane, thats precisely how it works. But you should know as well as anyone that you cant get anywhere with an alcoholic by forcing him. I, too, have been very disappointed in this thread. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. You have taken this quote out of context . Find an obituary, get service details, leave condolence messages or send flowers or gifts in memory of a loved one. Velour said: ~ja]. There is a difference. We are the body of Christ. Instead she said ha ha and discussed kicking him out of the church, complete with scripture verses to justify the deed. Some medications break the cycle the body is running on-producing anxiety. Plainly put so-called support programs are overrated. Velour wrote: You chose to believe your wrong assumption about Barbara and me. I have observed and experienced this truth throughout my own life. The Bible teaches no such thing. Serous help? But sexual problems are a common problem in alcoholics men and women alike and its covered in treatment programs and post-treatment programs. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. In other words, my daughters brain tumor was a disease that was not caused by her behavior or the behavior of those around her. Jesus has been helping us for over 60 years(along with many professionals) but oh the damage and hurt. 13 God judges[b] those outside. My FIL was a terrible abusive drunk, he eventually got sober at age 54. I know several individuals who consume large amounts of alcohol on a regular basis and seem to have normal lives and hold down great jobs or are self employed. Just wanted to say, this echoes the thoughts that have been running through my mind after reading the article. In this mans case, the police authorities, legal professionals, and the public have observed boughs of demonstrated impairment and the use of Improper judgement. And get involved with Al Anon. Theres also a lot more to the Bible than just one verse. Two days into it, I called my doctor and begged him to take me off the blood thinners so I could take non-steroidal anti-inflammatories (Think ibuprofen). If its 2 and 3 he is being monitored somewhat closely and I assume is less of a danger to society, at least on the road. Introducing The Keller Center. Oh, good grief. some thoughts. Velour wrote: Thats just not cool. My mother would ask me the same question over and over. Sproul, Jr. has a new book coming out, published by Ichthus Publications (what were they thinking???). Born Robert Charles Sproul on February 13, 1939 in Pittsburgh, Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, United States, RC, as he became best known, was the son of Robert Cecil Sproul and Mayre Ann Yardis. started his own brand of churches after he was defrocked by his fathers group. Association of Related Churches There is a world of difference between an alcoholic of no particular name or reputation benefiting from the love of a functional church, and an authoritarian church CEO being effectively treated in the very church in which his word has been law for years. We are also to bear one anthers burdens, help one another, etc. Its for good reason that so many have called it a cult.. But should RC Jr be permitted to stay in a pastoral role? So I was only saying what the Bible says. He is living under the supervision of other strong, caring family members who watch over him and he is slowly regaining his ability to function normally, as well as his dignity. Loving accountability along the way always helps prevent expulsion because it can guard against backsliding. He just had his church take a vote and put him right back in as their pastor, which is all the proof you need to know his church was actually a cult. Are you not reading my comments to you? May we all be "wounded healers" who do no harm. In fact, in my post there last Monday I express outrage about how PCA churches are often excommunicating victims of domestic abuse for divorcing their abusers. Velour wrote: My mother died several years back, causing me great emotional pain, but I didnt turn to alcohol (or other substances) to cope with that pain. But sometimes thats where we end up. I do believe the Word of God is the Word of God and is far superior to anything we could ever dream up in our own minds. Hes not going to jail or treatment? Barbara wrote this response to H.U.G. Barbara trotted out the classic evangelical line that people with these problems arent real Christians, arent bearing fruit, etc. Sproul, theologian, pastor, and founder of Ligonier Ministries, died on December 14, 2017, at the age of 78, after being hospitalized due to complications R.C. She believes that alcoholics/addicts should be kicked out of the church, and that H.U.G. IMO, any so called Christian who is not angry about this needs to take a good look at their own heart. I only agree with this to the extent the Church is willing to do the same for any member of their church who should need the same. So Velour, you have now ordered JulieAnne around by telling her what she needs to do. I am sure this gossip card is one of the factors that allowed RC Sproul Jr. to get away with what he did for long. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. But he doesnt always choose to do what we want, no matter how fervent our prayers may be. The Sprouls lived in an extremely rural town called Mendota. What a traumatic experience for a young teen. I dont know. Im just acknowledging the reality of what was your life and what is their life. Over the last 15ish yrs of his life he swapped alcohol for compulsive eating, but at least it allowed him to get sober, practice law again, re-marry & have a 2nd family. First off, I am not in a position of authority in a church, such as a pastoral position, so I dont see this as being relevant to me as it is for someone such as Sproul Jr who works as a preacher. I said, Sproul Jr. has suffered tragedies, yes. You tried to paint me with the same brush, but I happened to read your response and corrected you. He sounds arrogant and terrible. I am all for using these tools but they are not a panacea. With one person I knew who was bailing out her adult sons I would tell her that she needs to let them experience the consequences of their actions. That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. One from RC Sproul, Jr., verifying where he currently attends church. Either way you need to stop putting words in other peoples mouths. But a sex hook up account? Bang head on table. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-recovering-alcopholic-response-heather-kopp. Not saying you are wrong JY, but if you read the entire chapter, including the beginning of chapter six, Paul references the assembly as well, and turning over to Satan. Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. I have always qualified my comments with the fact that the church should seek professional help in how to deal with him and NOT handle it themselves. She can run her blog how she likes. So for creating a scandal he got a ten month paid holiday. It means please stop adding to what Barbara said. I was not laughing at alcoholics. RC Sproul Jr has been jeopardizing the lives of the public, his own children, and other people's children, for many years. If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. What a wonderful ministry that you have had! i wish this werent so. RC Sproul Jrinitiallypled *not guilty," proving he wasnot ready to face his issues. Ann Sproul of San Francisco, San Francisco County, California was born on January 25, 1931. My goal is to get this thread back on track. Yes it would be nice, but I just dont see it happening. I sometimes walked around with a soda pop in one hand. If he wants church support, hes going to have to change churches, I think. He sounds like a great big jerk and a control freak. Its non stop catering to their lifestyle. All the years I spent visiting MHPs (mental health professionals) in person, where I drove to their offices, were basically a waste of my time. I weary, honestly I do, of you constantly finding the negative in things and never being able to cite people who you know who have benefited from outside help: 12-Step programs, in-patient treatment programs, therapy, psychiatry, etc. Clearly you have never experienced the total helplessness and pain of having an alcoholic loved one. Sure there are some bums out there. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. Every case is different. The record of his life, the record he created and boasted about in his own sermons and publications, the record he established boozing it up in front of his church members, proves that RC Sproul Jr has been abusing the booze for many many years prior to his personal family tragedies. oh my goodness .. and me: That is what I was responding to. I was home alone. Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. I am even more concerned about her lack of education and information about addiction, including co-addiction (i.e. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. Q. If so, how did the other impression get started and take hold, do you think? It was as if there was a cry from heaven, as if Jesus heard the words God damn you, because thats what it meant to be cursed and under the anathema of the Father. Just because this was his first arrest dont assume that this was the first time he did it. Theres a show about morbidly obese people on cable TV, and some of them over eat to medicate pain left over from childhood. To an Alky, the Constitutional Right to My Next Drink cannot be violated in any way.. After internship I started a residency in psychiatry but I did not finish the residence. After he was defrocked he stayed as head pastor of St. Peter Presbyterian Church but changed his and his churchs affiliation to Doug Wilsons CREC. Some of it I dont think is fair, but there may be some merit in it. I agree with what you wrote about Sproul 2 and how the different problems should be handled. That was the purpose of our Parents Concerned ministry. Share Background Report Overview of Vesta Voorhis Sproul Lives in: Sanford, Florida Phone: View phone number Age: 84 Gender: Female Single Women in the Church: Valued orNot? No one has said we shouldnt try. As others have pointed out rather than enable RC2, RC should have insisted no special treatment be given to RC2 and thus forced RC2 to hit rock bottom. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. in observing their lives, i see how common sense has served them very well. We had connections with the San Jose Police dept, Good Samaritan Hospital, The Foundry School, The Bill Wilson House, Teen Challenge, Victory Outreach etc,etc. Thus securing a good and firm foundation, perhaps? Drunkenness was one of a number of formal charges that were brought against RC Sproul Jr in late 2005 to his denomination, the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly. Believe me, I am all for treatment, and I am extremely frustrated that there seems to be no way to help someone who doesnt want treatment, whether they deny they have a problem, or they admit that they have a problem but they dont want treatment anyway. My hubby and his eight siblings suffered severely under their fathers alcoholism.the youngest is now 55, but the emotional scars linger. Over the years we formed connections with hospitals, rehabs, special schools. Leave him alone! (And this is coming from me, who pointed out in one blog post on my Daisy Blog that I am confounded and disappointed that she and her co-blogger have prohibited discussion of codependency at their domestic violence blog.). Last month, a young couple from my church was in a horrible accident just down the street from my house. I moved back in to help with my nephew and a bit with him for a few years. if you can remember way back some time ago, a person behaved the same way but under a different name than H.A. Not impossible. I am very glad that you turned your own pain into a hopeful message for others. I wouldnt call it a mixing of apples and oranges. Theres a lot in the Bible, not just one verse. The next tweet shows a message from Pine Hills Church when I inquired if their church is charismatic and asked about the denomination. Blog owners can run their blogs how they like. The guy may have suffered tragedy but we all do in some way, shape or form. I would also like to say that in my own extended family there are some alcoholics. It is wrong. You can read our explanation here: For many, if the self-med is alcohol or drugs or opioids, this requires medical help; and very likely psychiatric intervention and follow up also. They do more harm than good. Prayer Requests No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. I take Barbara and what she stated. I dont draw a hard line in the sand, which I think can go to the other direction of legalism. Here is one I would suggest: "Alcohol will turn you into the same a**hole your father was.George Carlin,When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops? Unfortunately, less than 10 percent of them receive any treatment.. Which is sad & lonely. Maybe he should have let him truly hit bottom, so he would be more motivated to change. She did not show that she had no clue. This often does not happen because money is not available. It seems that most of us are in agreement that: Alcoholics are liars- the best liars. If he, or other Christians who are closer to Jr, have not confronted Jr scripturally, this greatly decreases my respect for them. I really doubt most alcoholics CAN go to inpatient treatment for 30 let alone 90 days. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? Julie Anne showed a lack of knowledge about the topic of substance abuse. Just my take on it. More than that, how do you know what their drinking habits are? Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. I have friends and family who dont drink, for various reasons. "You're not drunk if you can lean on the pulpit without holding on." She may have been confused and thought I wrote that I myself have been banned from your blog, which I never wrote or said. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. He was bored. Thanks for giving us that information. She was born on May 29, 1932 in Holbrook, Arizona to Harry and Dorothy Downey. They absolutely cannot be shamed, manipulated, coerced, convinced, or reasoned into sobriety. I had not heard that. Those who do so are implying there is some correlation. dont recall, still too lazy to scroll up to re read her comment at this time) would it be fine with you if he was fired in private? Would you please, so as not to cause me to stumble, stop suggesting that it is wrong to drink alcohol in moderation, or that drinking alcohol in moderation somehow is a failure to love my brothers? Velour, that person you know may believe that we banned her from A Cry For Justice. I havent read all the comments, so forgive me if I am off topic by this point. RC Jr is a high functioning alkie who is quite adept at sneaking a few tipples through the day and leaving no telltale signs. and me. Unbelievers have often accused Christians of Dark Ages thinking. But for a professing believer to attack other believers in such a manner is disturbing. Velour wrote: I am commenting on the same statement you commented on. 0.175. Drunkenness may involve more of a choice than does alcoholism. I am not against treatment, and Barbara did not say her opinion, so until she specifies, we cannot assume. At no time did I say that R.C. context is key to understanding, though, dont you agree? 30-90 day inpatient treatment is cost prohibitive for a lot of people, even if they wanted to go. I always encourage people who need help to see professionals. Sproul was founder of Ligonier Ministries, first minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Fla., and first president of R Dr. R.C. I love this story. He regained his health, went to AA, extensive counseling and stayed sober. I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. Some might call it being accountable. so I think that the front-loaded moral and ethical formation of a young person in the Church is a kind of preventative and strengthening function, far more positive than punishment. However, you did make a good point, and Im glad you did: Sproul Jr. did indeed engage in that sin and irresponsibility before those tragedies occurred his life which bolsters my original statement. took exception to what I said and said I created a false correlation. Maybe someday Ill feel comfortable sharing more of my story here. Put that drink away now! Here as I type these words, there is a bottle of wine sitting on the kitchen counter within my view. She just trotted out a few scripture verses as though that will take care of everything. We dont know enough about Sproul to know if he needs inpatient or outpatient medical treatment, but neither is likely to work if he isnt actually interested in quitting. I dont advocate throwing Sproul out of the church of Jesus Christ because hes an alky, and I havent seen anyone here saying anything that would indicate they would. I am extremely angry and jealous that I did not make the money he made. 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